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Marth & Lucina

*Note: There are differences for out of shield punishes between Marth and Lucina! Please pay attention. All of Marth’s out of shield data here is with his tipper (except for DAir, which is always -9). Generally, non-tipper frame advantage is anywhere from 1 to 3 frames less safe. Check UFD for more information. Marth's frame advantages will be this color, and Lucina's will be this color.

Jab1(-14/-16):
NAir (Frame 7)
GSA (Frame 9)
Grab (Frame 16)
(Can be spaced out)

Jab2 (-18/-19):
GSA (Frame 9)
USmash (Frame 10)
Grab (Frame 16)
(Can be spaced out)

FTilt (-14/-15):
NAir (Frame 7)
GSA (Frame 9)
Grab (Frame 16)
(Can be spaced out)

UTilt (-18/-19):
GSA (Frame 9)
USmash (Frame 10)
Grab (Frame 16)

DTilt (-6/-8):
Unpunishable
(Marth only, safe on shield)
NAir (Frame 7)
(Can be spaced out)

Dash Attack (-20/-21):
GSA (Frame 9)
USmash (Frame 10)
Grab (Frame 16)
(Can be spaced out)

FSmash (-29/-31):
FSmash (Frame 26)
(Can be spaced out)

USmash (-36/-35):
FSmash (Frame 26)

DSmash (-23/-24):
GSA (Frame 9)
USmash (Frame 10)
Grab (Frame 16)
(Can be spaced out)

NAir (-3):
Unpunishable
(Safe on shield)

FAir (-5/-6):
Unpunishable
(Safe on shield)

BAir (-5):
Unpunishable
(Safe on shield)

UAir (-3):
Unpunishable
(Safe on shield)

DAir (-9):
NAir (Frame 7)
GSA (Frame 9)
(Can be spaced out)

Shield Breaker (-23 to Shield Break):
Unpunishable
(Technically won't break a full shield without a charge, but you're asking for a lot of trouble shielding this)

Dancing Blade (-42 Neutral, -31 Up, -49 Down/-43 Neutral, -32 Up, -50 Down):
FSmash (Frame 26)
(Can be spaced out, and inputs can be delayed)

Dolphin Slash:
--

Counter:
--

• Neutral Moves: Aerials, Tilts, Jab, Grab.

• Poke/Pressure Moves: DTilt, Landing Aerials (Notably Falling UAir as crossup pressure).

• Kill Moves: BAir, FAir, NAir, UTilt, FTilt, Smash Attacks.

• Kill Confirms: NAir 1 > Follow-up, DAir > UAir/USmash/FSmash.

• Shield Breaker is a rare mix-up when they understand where and how you shield for an insanely good punish. Remember it exists, and don’t get too shield happy in those same positions.

• Dolphin Slash is Frame 5 out of shield and a kill option that is also invincible on startup when grounded. This limits your shield pressure options.

• However, spotdodge beats out Dolphin Slash. This means your mix-ups on shield are essentially Jab1 and 2, Grab, and spotdodge after a landing aerial on shield.

• Part of this MU is understanding the risk-reward implications of their sword. Not only do they outrange you, the sword means they do not risk their hurtbox when they attack.

• The implication of this is that Marth and Lucina need to get in against Young Link, but once they do, they can keep that sword between them and Young Link, meaning that Young Link would get hurt trying to even contest the attack.

• This means in footsies, Marth and Lucina will attempt to hold this set distance against you, winning neutral by placing their swings correctly, and said distance giving them less risk for whiffing.

• That’s the reason we lose this MU. We have to commit more vs a character that can establish a wall with less commitment, which means we need to make more reads in neutral.

• Understand their poke options and movement in neutral. Marth and Lucina want to get into Young Link’s midrange dead-zone, which they can fully exploit.

• Combine that with the knowledge of how they get in (jumping over/around projectiles or running straight towards you).

• You’ll have to make reads in footsies/up close, stuffing their options preemptively, and disengage with projectiles.

• Boomerang is extremely risky, and retreating Boomerang toss is very punishable. Before Boomerang even comes out, they can get in and smack you. It may not be worth using this move so much.

• Bomb can help in footsies in this MU, since we can’t risk as many close up interactions.

Boxing

(How do I escape this situation?):

• When in the corner, the range that swordies want to build to wall you out is already established.

• You’ll have to make a read on their move choice/commitment in advantage, otherwise the sword will just beat out your attack.

Platform Pressure

(What tools do they have? How can we escape this pressure?):

• FTilt hits platforms.

• Their sword means that they have so many ways to hit you on platforms. Be smart with shield usage, but do not rely upon it.

• ZAir is a neat mix-up to get off of platforms in this MU, since it’ll outrange them and potentially combo.

Landing

(How do they cover it? What are my best options?):

• UAir, Tilts, and FSmash.

• They’ll either chase you in the air or catch an anticipated attack upon landing. If they chase you in the air, mix-up fall speed and between NAir/DAir/airdodge.

• If they anticipate an aggressive landing, try to drift away or avoid the attack, They could also grab if they expect shield upon landing.

Offstage

(How Do I Escape This Position And What Do I Look Out For?):

• Marth and Lucina could throw out one of NAir, FAir, or BAir to gimp you. Be careful with your drift and use your double jump smartly. DI up when sent offstage, if you can, to give yourself more space to work with.

• They also have a DAir spike, which proves nasty for low recoveries, which are used to get around Counter.

• Be ready to stage tech Dolphin Slash.

• Counter is the main issue with getting back to stage. You’ll just die if ASA hits this. You have to choose a drift that gets around them AND doesn’t leave you vulnerable to Counter.

• Of course you can tether right through Counter, but you have to be wary of them intercepting tether with an aerial too.

• If tether isn’t an option, delay your ASA as a read on Counter, or use wall jumps to stall if those are available.

Ledge:

• Marth and Lucina’s DTilt and FSmash hit ledge.

• Every option can be covered by Marth and Lucina at low-risk, and they have options that cover multiple options. Mix-up the option choice and timing.

Juggling/Boxing:

• Marth and Lucina are extremely floaty, which means they have more time to drift left and right, but they also take more time to land.

• They can cover their landing with DAir.

• Using Dancing Blade 1 with a B-Reverse or Wavebounce, they can stall in the air and potentially shift their momentum in the opposite direction.

• If they are directly above you, line yourself up for an UAir, you should be able to UAir through airdodges.

• If they're landing farther away from you, or they plan too, you can use Boomerang to catch her in the air. This works since they're stuck in the air for so long.

• You don’t want to overcommit in boxing Marth and Lucina, or they can get away with a sword swing, since their frame data isn’t bad for a swordie.

Offstage:

• Marth and Lucina’s tools to get back to stage consist of airdodge/directional airdodge, double jump, Dolphin Slash, and Dancing Blade 1 to stall in the air, as well as their aerials to swat the opponent.

• They mainly rely on their floatiness to get back to the stage, as their recovery is a vertical angle.

• Edgeguard her by creating a frame trap with Boomerang or Bomb to force an aerial or airdodge out, which you then can punish with NAir or FAir while drifting with the projectile.

• NAir can trade with Dolphin Slash, but it’s both inconsistent and risky.

• Remember to shield Dolphin Slash. It hits through the ledge.

• They gain double jump FAir, NAir, and Shield Breaker from ledge.

• Don’t let them roll in for free.

• Dolphin Slash can be 2-framed with 2 Bombs (9 Frame window).

• Stick to low commitment options so that your punish doesn’t get beat out by their sword.

Ledge Info:

XLR8’s Spreadsheet Young Link Ledge Info:

DTilt: Hits

DSmash: Hits

FTilt: Hits

Most Reliable Move: All

Animation Info: N/A

Note: Normal, spacing matters.

• FD DTilt > ASA %s: 109, 100

• FD FThrow Ledge %s: 174, 147

• FD Milkshake %s: 100-148, 90-125, can escape with SDI

• Marth/Lucina Kill Throws: UThrow

• Marth and Lucina turn around after their BAir. They can’t Bair twice in the same direction without landing or using BAir once in the opposite direction.

Lucina Differences:

• All sword attacks, save for DAir, lack a sweetspot hitbox. To compensate, she also does not have any sourspots, making her more consistent overall, but less rewarding for proper spacing. To see the differences, check UFD for Marth and Lucina.

• Battlefield:
  Terrible. The side platforms are perfect for Marth and Lucina to pressure with FTilt/UTilt/FSmash. Dolphin Slash is safer, and there’s so much space offstage to edgeguard. We don’t gain anything, either.

• Final Destination:
  Great. Dolphin Slash becomes incredibly risky, and there's enough space to work with.

• Smashville:
  Terrible. There’s a lack of space to address Marth and Lucina here, and the zones are good for them, too.

• Town & City:
  Indifferent. The (initial) platform layout is rather annoying, and the zones are a bit of a pain, but Dolphin slash is risky at times and there is enough space to work with.

• Lylat Cruise:
  Indifferent. Similar issues as SV, but this stage is a hotbed for deadly Young Link setups.

• Pokémon Stadium 2:
  Indifferent. The all-around pick that has a mesh of strengths and weaknesses mentioned in all other stages.

• Kalos Pokémon League:
  Good. Large zones, but plenty of space to address Marth and Lucina, as well as wall jumps. Dolphin Slash becomes riskier.

• Yoshi’s Story:
  Indifferent. We gain wall jumps, sure, but juggles become even more deadly. A more breathable BF. Ledge trapping is a bit ruined for Marth and Lucina by the slants, though.

• Extra O vs Stretch: [Smash Ultimate] XenoArcadian 2019 Q4 (Pools A1 Winners Quarters) - Extra O vs DA TR Stretch